Space Junk Is Our New Tragedy of the Commons

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Brian
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Space Junk Is Our New Tragedy of the Commons

Post by Brian »

"Unless countries overcome their differences and regulate the use of satellites, we’re all headed for trouble."

from:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... he-commons
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Re: Space Junk Is Our New Tragedy of the Commons

Post by Cliff »

Brian
I totally agree.
But personally I think the biggest problem in the World generally & England in particular, is just greedy human over-population.
Everyone just avoids the issue because no one has a clue what to do about it. And some countries may even have quite low populations and very little money. It is undoubtedly a very tricky issue & arguably the elderly & me in particular, should shut up about the matter.
The Chinese seem to justify their current excessive polluting on the grounds that they have only caused a serious pollution a few years whilst places like the USA have been polluting the world Earth for a few centuries, so China seems happy to just catch them up.
Best of luck from Cliff - we all need it
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Re: Space Junk Is Our New Tragedy of the Commons

Post by brian livesey »

Apparently, over 60% of satellites are “commercial”, so we can reckon that a proportion of them are for trivial purposes such as the gambling industry.
Now, it’s being said that there are so many rocket launches that they contribute significantly to global warming.
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Re: Space Junk Is Our New Tragedy of the Commons

Post by Charlotte Bridge »

I know about one young company who cares not only about space exploration but also about environment on Earth and reducing amount of space junk. Skyrora is U.K. space tech startup and it is currently the only private company capable of launching rockets from U.K. soil. What’s more interesting is that the vehicle can refire its engine several times in orbit and conduct multiple missions in a single trip. This makes it a “Space Tug” able to perform a number of maneuvers in space, including the extraction of space junk or maintenance if satellites are already in orbit. The Space Tug is powered by a 3D-printed 3.5kN engine and the first stage of is launch is fuelled using an eco-friendly fuel (Ecosene) made in part from waste plastics.
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Re: Space Junk Is Our New Tragedy of the Commons

Post by RMSteele »

Charlotte, it’s good to hear of positive developments. Kind thoughts, Bob
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Re: Space Junk Is Our New Tragedy of the Commons

Post by mikemarotta »

Charlotte Bridge wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:22 am [Skyrora] is U.K. space tech startup and ... the vehicle can refire its engine several times in orbit ... This makes it a “Space Tug” able to perform a number of maneuvers in space, including the extraction of space junk ...
It's about time. One person's trash is another person's treasure. Given some improvements along these lines, someone (several someones) will be harvesting junk. Then there will be arguments about whether the junk was really a working satellite or not.

Market solutions work.

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Mike M.
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Re: Space Junk Is Our New Tragedy of the Commons

Post by michael feist »

I agree with Cliff and hate to say this, but a species that can still produce over a dozen young during there reproductive years, and these children do the same, etc etc, with few predators, except bacteria and viruses which we fight to control and overcome ( no-one wants to die of disease, of course) and which has extended the average life expectancy hugely, and even with the huge number of people that are killing each other in wars, this must eventually lead to far too many people for the environment to support. "Do the maths" as they say. There does not seem to be a humane answer to this problem. Regards Maf.
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Re: Space Junk Is Our New Tragedy of the Commons

Post by mikemarotta »

michael feist wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:24 am. I agree with Cliff and hate to say this, but . "Do the maths" as they say. ...
I must respectfully disagree.The mathematics of Malthus was long ago invalidated by the advances of industrialization brought about by the programs of more-or-less open markets including more-or-less open borders to allow more-or-less open exchange. People are the most valuable resource on the planet. When there were even one million of us scattered in a temperate band mostly above the Equator, a tribe might have one genius born in three generations and if that person survived to adulthood, the tribe might have gained one new idea, which may or may not have been passed down in oral tradition.

Literally, you cannot have civilization without people living in cities. Even in the earliest of them, cities survived and thrived, even against the failures of crops in the surrounding lands, exactly because cities were centers of trade. Key to that is that when people moved into cities, they brought variegated cultural attributes with them which then merged as the roots of native cultures were left behind by those emigres. Any of our cities today of even 10 millions or a mere one million would have been unimaginable to Thomas Malthus.

The tragedy of the commons is the commons. No one takes care of property that they do not own. That is why rhinoceroses and elephants are endangered but cows and pigs are not. As space becomes privatized by the ownership of orbits and the ownership of vehicles and the communities they grow, these problems will be solved. And, yes, other problems will arise. Probably the best overall statement came at the end of the 1938 movie version of THINGS TO COME when ever-hopeful Oswald Cabal replies to the handwringing Raymond Passworthy.

We are not supposed to engage in political argument here. But there is a study called political science. If we can keep this on a scientific plane with facts and the theories that explain them and the facts that test those theories, we can make progress. Otherwise, it generates a lot of heat but no light.

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Re: Space Junk Is Our New Tragedy of the Commons

Post by Cliff »

MikeM
I was interested to read your comments & in particular the suggestion that people are the most valuable resource on the planet.
I gather the planet (Earth) has existed a few billion years whilst people (humans) have only existed for a few hundred thousand years or so.
I can understand people thinking they are a very important resource but I think people need to be around for a lot- lot longer before their value can be assessed. Unfortunately I doubt I'll be around long enough to know whether you are right or not.
Best wishes from Cliff
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Re: Space Junk Is Our New Tragedy of the Commons

Post by jeff.stevens »

mikemarotta wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 2:18 pm Literally, you cannot have civilization without people living in cities. Even in the earliest of them, cities survived and thrived, even against the failures of crops in the surrounding lands, exactly because cities were centers of trade. Key to that is that when people moved into cities, they brought variegated cultural attributes with them which then merged as the roots of native cultures were left behind by those emigres. Any of our cities today of even 10 millions or a mere one million would have been unimaginable to Thomas Malthus.

The tragedy of the commons is the commons. No one takes care of property that they do not own. That is why rhinoceroses and elephants are endangered but cows and pigs are not. As space becomes privatized by the ownership of orbits and the ownership of vehicles and the communities they grow, these problems will be solved. And, yes, other problems will arise. Probably the best overall statement came at the end of the 1938 movie version of THINGS TO COME when ever-hopeful Oswald Cabal replies to the handwringing Raymond Passworthy.
Interesting, Mike, there's a lot here I can't disagree with. I think these problems can be solved too, we just need the motivation and the drive to do it -particularly the "no one takes care of property that they do now own" issue. We are all part of the problem, and yet we can all be part of the solution. It's something that I spend a lot of time dwelling on. My priorities and motivations have changed dramatically over the past five years. I see a greater personal responsibility to contributing (in however small a way) to the issue that there is an onus on me to take care of the planet on which I live, and on which I want to see future generations live and survive.

Best wishes, Jeff.
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Re: Space Junk Is Our New Tragedy of the Commons

Post by Cliff »

Jeff & MikeM
In many ways I hope you are right, but I am not happy on such issues. I'm attaching a photo on the "gallery" to illustrate my concerns.
from Cliff
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Re: Space Junk Is Our New Tragedy of the Commons

Post by brian livesey »

Dare I say it, but the solution is entirely political, but not by appealing to establishment politicians.
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Cliff
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Re: Space Junk Is Our New Tragedy of the Commons

Post by Cliff »

Brian
I must admit I do not really know what the answer is myself. But I sometimes think the best practical answer might be a totally ruthless dictatorship - ME in charge of course.
If I understand correctly the UK is only responsible for about ONE percent of the current environment threat. So, I think I might be more impressed if more of the protesters in the UK would go protesting in other countries - but I suppose they need to rehearse here.
So give me 6 months to get them organised & I'll send my first batch of batch of protesters off. The UK tax payers will pay their fares - or perhaps they could walk or swim to their destinations & back again - all their food paid for, swimming costumes too.
Best wishes from Cliff - Heil CLIFF, Heil CLIFF
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Re: Space Junk Is Our New Tragedy of the Commons

Post by Lariliss »

Space junk became an issue today due to the technology boost, it was always there since the Sputnik was sent.
Spaceship, observation, and satellite technologies were not sleeping 50 years as some are questioning.
1. Today engineering is mature, tested with numerous designs and flights. So that we can plan realistic and bald missions, including sending numerous facilities in short timelines without unnecessary too much of reinsurance and redundancy verifications.
2. Continuous coverage is not just traffic boost with hobbies, money and defence, it has its primary tasks as survival of ecosystems and humans, supportive education.
3. The management of projects with confidence and effective decision making, leveraging all the risks is for the space missions for sure. They should be fast and secure.
4. These goals are set to bring space launch to a new level to leverage the traffic demand and sustain the market.
I believe, in the near future, it will be harder to launch anything to space, regardless of the amount of money. New international cooperation level and regulations will come.

The are exactly related questions in front of any company in the business, as the following ones:
- More effective AI implementation for the satellites control, thus possibly reducing their number;
- Debris removal technologies for new launches;
- Making ‘traffic rules’ on the orbit.
Number, Letter, Note: Know, Think, Dream.
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Re: Space Junk Is Our New Tragedy of the Commons

Post by brian livesey »

Remember CND in the 1950s and 60s Cliff, with its mass demonstrations, impassioned speeches appealing to “reason”, and demonstrators chaining themselves to railings, etc? Now, CND is just another impotent ginger group.
Far from getting nuclear weapons banned, nine countries now possess them, with more to come.
Extinctional Rebellion will go the same way as CND, because it makes the same mistake that CND made by appealing to the perpetrators and their representatives in government.
Our unique planet will get messier and messier, until there’s complete systems change to stop the desecration. The political solution to enact this already exists in embryo, but I’m not permitted to mention it on this forum. :wink:
Last edited by brian livesey on Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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