Nextgen Starlink, thin end of the wedge?

A place to post details relating to artificial satellite observations

Moderators: joe, Brian, Guy Fennimore

Brian
Posts: 3814
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:58 pm
Location: Wellingborough
Contact:

Nextgen Starlink, thin end of the wedge?

Post by Brian »

"SpaceX says Starship will launch the next generation of Starlink satellites"

"configurations max out around 29,990 Gen2 (2.0, V2.0, etc) Starlink satellites Gen 2 satellites are likely to be significantly larger and more powerful than existing Starlink V1.0 satellites, which weigh approximately 260 kg (~570 lb) each. Gen 2 satellites (may) each weigh approximately 850-1250 kg".

Solar arrays for Gen 2 are also likely to be significantly larger than for current Starlink.

https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-starsh ... lites/amp/
Brian
52.3N 0.6W
Wellingborough UK.

254mm LX90 on Superwedge, WO ZS66SD, Helios 102mm f5 on EQ1, Hunter 11x80, Pentax 10x50
ASI120MC Toucam Pros 740k/840k/900nc mono, Pentax K110D
Ro-Ro roof shed
David Frydman
Posts: 5384
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:25 am
Contact:

Re: Nextgen Starlink, thin end of the wedge?

Post by David Frydman »

That is basically why I don't bother to post anything astronomical after 60 plus years of observations.

All of the talk about dark skies, nature etc. when the truth is that the Earth may already be lost for the future as long as humans are a part of it.

I am not depressed about it, just realistic.

I think that talk of humans going to colonise other star systems is just wishful thinking.

I have not seen the Milky Way for about 25 years.
I can hardly see any stars here with unaided eyes.

I saw one magnitude minus 1 Perseid or Kappa Cygni?? in a 2 minute watch from the kitchen window.

I saw one or two NLC displays this year.
A few photos also.

Mizar as double a few days ago with an 18x50 binocular and the mag 7.6 companion between Mizar and Alcor.

I go out about once a month because of Covid and the large crowds outside, who take no precautions.

My eyes have seen about 1000 lunations, and am surprised to still be here.
I am truly thankful for every new day.

Unfortunately I am not located in a rural location and cannot travel.
My eyes are also not so good any more, although still O.K.

But I encourage all who are able to observe with reasonable skies to do so.
With unaided eyes, binoculars or telescopes.

Regards to all,
David
brian livesey
Posts: 5838
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:05 am
Location: Lancashire
Contact:

Re: Nextgen Starlink, thin end of the wedge?

Post by brian livesey »

It’s good to hear from you again David :D . Regarding what you say about stellar colonisation being wishful thinking, there’s a practical way to get up close and personal with exoplanets and that’s through enhanced imaging.
We’ve seen how over the years the sensitivity of Astro-imaging has improved immensely and keeps on doing. Using large space telescopes with ultra-sensitive imaging capabilities could well show us actual surface details on exoplanets.
As for humanity completely trashing the Earth, we’ll have total systems change to avoid that, meaning the introduction of a holistic way of life, in tune with nature.
brian
Brian
Posts: 3814
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:58 pm
Location: Wellingborough
Contact:

Re: Nextgen Starlink, thin end of the wedge?

Post by Brian »

Soylent Green? :mrgreen:
Brian
52.3N 0.6W
Wellingborough UK.

254mm LX90 on Superwedge, WO ZS66SD, Helios 102mm f5 on EQ1, Hunter 11x80, Pentax 10x50
ASI120MC Toucam Pros 740k/840k/900nc mono, Pentax K110D
Ro-Ro roof shed
David Frydman
Posts: 5384
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:25 am
Contact:

Re: Nextgen Starlink, thin end of the wedge?

Post by David Frydman »

Tasty?

Regards,
David
brian livesey
Posts: 5838
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:05 am
Location: Lancashire
Contact:

Re: Nextgen Starlink, thin end of the wedge?

Post by brian livesey »

Best with chips.
Eventually, humanity will shed its current destructive, anthropocentric, attitude towards nature by seeing ourselves as being only a part of the whole. Modern astrophysics seems to be assisting in encouraging this new outlook by showing us how miniscule our place in the Universe is.
brian
Lariliss
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:19 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Nextgen Starlink, thin end of the wedge?

Post by Lariliss »

Starlink is about to surpass all the objects already sent, starting from sputnik.
I would like to look from a positive side of exploration evolution:
1. This brings connectivity to far regions.
2. There MUST be a plan how to avoid collisions.
3. There must be collaboration for junk removal behind.

Looks like, the orbit is so overcrowded with junk, that it is the nearest orbit to start with cleaning:
1. Make working services safe.
2. Make any further launch safe.
3. Humanity would not be where it is now without an intrinsic strive for exploration. We might go extinct (at least partially) in small tribal clashes, natural disasters, starving without exploration and cooperation.
4. Space exploration and the benefits that are aimed at it are logical from the point (1). Information gathering is precious. Global network for society is sometimes vital. One of the best internet achievements is education, which is one of the keys of social stability and even survival.

Several different engineering ideas on how to catch the junk in space, presented by different countries/companies.
ESA announced robot-junk-remover test launch till 2025.
This also shows activity increase in this field, including private companies such as Skyrora (https://www.skyrora.com/blog/tag/uk-satellites).
Hopefully, till that time there will be more consolidation between racing countries, and test launches will not bring more danger, but more supervision launches.
Number, Letter, Note: Know, Think, Dream.
michael feist
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:27 am
Contact:

Re: Nextgen Starlink, thin end of the wedge?

Post by michael feist »

Hello David,
Great to hear from you with this posting. I still continue to post observations here as you may have noticed but I can very much recognise what you are writing about. Living in the centre of town, with no access to any sort of clear sky and being unable to get about + the Covid limitations must be horrible.
Fortunately, although the area where I live is being developed more and more, as houses are beginning to creep further and further up the hills, I can still see the Milky Way on a good night.
Local amateur astronomy isn't what it was, it seems far too complicated, and technical especially with the rapid increase and complexity of imaging, and although I used to photograph the Moon etc with digital camera, finally gave it up once the covid limitations made using the local chemist machines to print them out was no longer possible.
Continue Skywatching using 8x42 and 10x42 monoculars and an Ultima 65 zoom spotter, concentrating on bright asteroids , Uranus, Neptune, etc. and any bright enough comets. Objects not too obvious but not too hard to find!
I spent ten years running the Foredown Tower Astronomy Group but gave up giving talks, running out of things to say, and finally lost intertest in listening to talks. Age related hearing loss does not help either. The camera obscura is now sitting idle in the Tower.
As for the future, space travel to the stars does seem a dream. What ever happens, I will not be around to see it.
As for the problems here on Earth, who knows! I was amused by Brian's mention of Soylent Green. Too many people crammed together, could volunteer for euthanasia when they could take it no longer...and being then converted into Solvent Green....a food additive for those poor fools who were left.
best regards from mike feist, in the Land of the South Saxons.
Brian
Posts: 3814
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:58 pm
Location: Wellingborough
Contact:

Re: Nextgen Starlink, thin end of the wedge?

Post by Brian »

I don't think eating ourselves is a good idea. Look what happened in the '80s when we were feeding dead cows to live cows!
I feel really mad about that :roll:
Brian
52.3N 0.6W
Wellingborough UK.

254mm LX90 on Superwedge, WO ZS66SD, Helios 102mm f5 on EQ1, Hunter 11x80, Pentax 10x50
ASI120MC Toucam Pros 740k/840k/900nc mono, Pentax K110D
Ro-Ro roof shed
JohnM
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:34 pm
Location: Surrey
Contact:

Re: Nextgen Starlink, thin end of the wedge?

Post by JohnM »

Has anyone actually seen or imaged the current generation of Starlink & One Web Satellites when they are at operational altitude ( and attitude) ?

They are fairly easy to see when they are in low orbit particularly when they are are being de-orbited - I saw one that is now no more at about mag 2 recently but observing / imaging them at their operational altitude at mag 6 to 7 and fairly fast moving seems impossible from my light polluted location. It is not helped by the fact that they are bright in late twilight so the sky is not that dark.

A couple of interesting things about the next generation starlink satellites is that they will have infrared lasers to communicate with other satellites in the constellation. At present all communications go via the base stations.

Starlink user terminals are not very green - I understand the 'standby' power is around 100 to 120 Watts and if it is cold outside this increases as the aerial has a built in heater to remove frost / ice / snow that would stop the signal. The electricity cost needs to be factored in for anyone buying a terminal plus the impact on global warming.
Data Miner & Amateur Astronomer
stella
Posts: 1514
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:41 pm
Location: 55° 57'N: 03° 08'W
Contact:

Re: Nextgen Starlink, thin end of the wedge?

Post by stella »

Yes.
mikemarotta
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:04 pm
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Contact:

Re: Nextgen Starlink, thin end of the wedge?

Post by mikemarotta »

As an amateur astronomer, I am happy to see strings of satellites passing overhead in the night sky. They are the consequence of thoughtful foresight and careful planning. They express mentality, spirituality, and materiality. They are evidence of human intelligence in the universe.

Generally, the communities of professional and amateur astronomers all are opposed to SpaceX Skylink satellite constellations. They all predict that left unfettered, these objects will impair if not destroy astronomy as a ground-based activity. I stand alone.

First of all, even if (big if) land-based observation became untenable, it would only be incentive to put telescopes farther out, orbiting Earth or orbiting the Sun out to the asteroid belt or the Oort cloud or wherever. Amateur astronomers already do as the professionals, operating their own remote observatories located in deserts and on mountains, working from the comfort of their home offices. See The Last Stargazers by Emily Levesque. The times are long passed when astronomers sat at the eyepieces of remote telescopes to view the stars. For over a century, work has been increasing automated.

But other people are not happy to see everything that travels overhead. They do complain about constellations of satellites. It might be understandable if they also complained about meteors.

I accept satellite constellations on the same basis that I accept the Moon and Jupiter and even general light pollution. I am fully cognizant of the fact that last year, when we were shut down because of Covid, my city skies were much clearer. It was a high price to pay for some convenience. The bottom line is that we cannot have skies as clear as our ancestors knew them and also have the instruments that reveal the deep details of those skies.

More on my blog:
https://necessaryfacts.blogspot.com/202 ... tions.html
Michael E. Marotta
Explore Scientific 102 mm Refractor
National Geographic 70 mm Refractor
Ploessl oculars 40mm to 6mm 2X Barlow
mike49mercury@gmail.com
brian livesey
Posts: 5838
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:05 am
Location: Lancashire
Contact:

Re: Nextgen Starlink, thin end of the wedge?

Post by brian livesey »

I take issue with you Mike about satellites being a feature of civilisation. Military satellites, for example, indicate that humanity is still in a raw, semi-civilised, state.
If we investigated the role of other satellites, we’d find that many of them are being used for frivolous purposes.
Last edited by brian livesey on Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
brian
JohnM
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:34 pm
Location: Surrey
Contact:

Re: Nextgen Starlink, thin end of the wedge?

Post by JohnM »

You could consider the optical imaging astronomers the lucky ones as there is some hope that satellite trails may be able to be mostly removed from images or else shutters employed that close when a satellite crosses the FoV.

With wide field survey images the shutter technique will probably not work as it seems probable there will always be several satellites in the FoV.

There has been a Zooniverse project to label and then characterise satellite trails in Hubble images to try to determine how many more images are contaminated in the last couple of years.

Bigger problems are likley to be caused to spectroscopic observations as there is now way to separate the reflected photons from the spacecraft from those of the target. The fact that spectroscopic exposes are 10's to 100's times longer than visual exposures increases the risk.

Probably the biggest problems are faced by radio astronomers - while the satellites are supposed to broadcast in licenced bands there is always some sideband radiation at other frequencies. Some have said the situation will be similar to trying to take visual night sky images while someone is shining a searchlight at your telescope, or perhaps during daylight.
Data Miner & Amateur Astronomer
Lariliss
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:19 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Nextgen Starlink, thin end of the wedge?

Post by Lariliss »

Starlink might have been seen as a one of the every few years companies coming to challenge the satellite industry (Globalstar, Iridium, Leosat, Skybridge, Teledesic).
But not the same case to start in order to stay there functioning. The spectrum is already heavily loaded (including new rush for 5G roll outs), so the same approach must be done for the promised satellites internet coverage - do it fast.

Light pollution and space debris problems have already officially stated their concerns and SpaceX stating that working on the mitigation is ongoing.

The satellites will employ optical inter-satellite links and phased array beam-forming and digital processing technologies in the Ku- and Ka-bands, according to documents filed with the U.S. Federal Communications Commission (FCC) (Wikipedia).

Starlink dishes use about 100 watts while active. It has to be max power of all channels (control and traffic) utilised 100%. This level of utilization is reached for the heavy load scenarios when testing the equipment for the latency, data rate, etc. In real scenarios user behavior is not like that:
It can reach near 100% with short bursts, FTP Download;
Web browsing, messaging doesn’t need either high data rate or low latency;
Video streaming needs low latency and a high enough data rate (Full HD is about 5Mbps).

Typical 3G/4G base station is about 300W max power, these technologies have tens of thousands base stations in an average country and tens of millions of subscribers. Starlink's current target is about 500 000 subscribers.
Number, Letter, Note: Know, Think, Dream.
Post Reply